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Before you pass another dang law ... listen up!

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:32 PM EST
abuse, politics, law, mandatory-reporting
By Diddley Squat

Guest Blogger Fuzzy-Sozo, hamster-at-law, comments on legal stuff... or whatever

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Some things I would expect from the Fox Noise Channel but never from the supposedly-liberal hosts at MSNBC. You know what I mean - the old cheer-leading for harsh sentencing, longer prison terms, and criminalizing what's not already a crime. One, two, three, four! People in prison, we want more!

The trend is scary, and if nobody else will do it, I guess I'll just have to squeak up and make my opinion known. 

The latest "let's pass a law" news story comes from State College, Pennsylvania. And it couldn't be worse. In some ways it's more sickening than murder. The rape of young boys. Anybody with a half a heart or a barely-alive soul would step in and stop it, even if that meant taking a sledge hammer and caving in the chest of the pervert. 

Requiring people to go to the police when such things are happening might make sense if you don't think too hard. But if you examine what it really means means, well ... not so much.

We're talking about mandatory reporting here. And that's been a problem, not a solution, for years. Take psychologists and psychiatrists, for instance. They have long objected to the breach of confidentiality involved when they are required to report potential - that's potential - abuse.

Let's say you have a pedophile, a person who had an attraction to pre-pubescent children, who is worried that these unnatural desires may get out of hand. So before actually molesting a kid, the pedophile goes to a psychiatrist to seek help so that it won't happen.

Keep this in mind: Pedophilia is a sickness. Molesting children is a crime. But if the pedophile seeks help to keep from offending, mandatory reporting kicks in. The authorities are notified. No, the patients won't be charged with crimes. But they'll sure enough lose their liberties. They'll be in the state's cross-hairs from then on. 

So the law is counterproductive. In fact, this is a classic text-book example of a law at odds with reality. Simply stated, it's so risky to get help that many people who know they need it are afraid to seek it. And a percentage of them go on to abuse kids as a result. They may get away with their dastardly deeds for a long, long time. But they won't get past the first psychiatric visit. Count on it. 

So the law, in this case, clearly leads to more crimes against children, not fewer. More lives ruined. None predictably saved. 

But what about mandatory reporting by a person who knows when "something bad" is happening. By this I mean criminal laws meant to punish anyone who knows about a crime and fails to report it to police. That's a different can of worms, but every bit as wormy.

What constitutes "knowing," anyway? Does this apply only if you catch somebody in the act? Or does a faint but persistent suspicion count? Will the law require citizens to report things that just don't look right? Will the paranoid old woman who lives in the upstairs apartment play it safe and call 911 every time she sees a grown man wearing a raincoat when it's not raining? Probably so. The switchboards will stay lit up with reports that simply defy common sense.

And what constitutes a crime that qualifies for legally-mandated reporting? Maybe you know one of those sexually-voracious 15-year-old girls who has been around the block a whole bunch of times. You know the type. Tons of makeup. Flashy clothes. Already had two abortions, whatever. There are a lot of those out there. And if she seduces some inexperienced and reluctant 18-year-old nerd, you probably won't think it's a crime (nor do I). But if the law says it is, then it is. So do you have to take a day off work to go provide the local constable with a detailed account of what you know and how you know it? Please!

Will it extend to other crimes - like shoplifting? Littering? Pot smoking? Seriously, where are they going to draw the lines? 

I found it astounding that Ed Shultz, Chris Matthews, and so many of the other talking heads on MSNBC seem so willing to assume that adding another crime to the statute books is a great idea. Like the stupid three-strikes laws that already exist, this will only provide an incentive for an abuser to kill somebody who is potentially a witness to illegal activity.

There are good reasons why we don't need laws like this. Citizens are required to obey the law. When we start requiring that they enforce it as well, we're looking for trouble. Enforcement should be left to the professional enforcers, not the general public. People should be allowed to use common sense to decide whether something ought to be reported or not. The jails are crowded enough already. And laws that can only be enforced in ways that are random and arbitrary always cause problems. It never fails. 

So think about that, Chris! How will you feel when they come out and handcuff you for failing to inform them of something the police think you knew about or that you should have known about? Think you can convince them you really didn't know? Lots of luck.

This is the first in a series of Fuzzy Lectures on Fuzzy Law by Fuzzy-Sozo, hamster-at-law.




 

 


 

 

 

 

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  • Public Discussion (32)
Diddley Squat

You tell 'em, cousin Soz!

---Beetle

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:33 PM EST
bitemore

This is one of those conundrums that makes your gut squirm and your heart thump out of rhythm. Where DO you draw the line? Is it okay to watch a crime in progress and walk away, saying nothing to anyone about it? What about watching murder? What about watching a car passing a stopped school bus while kids are getting off or on? If we humans could be counted upon to do the right thing at all times, then there would be no need for laws mandating that they do the right things at all times. Humans are, to put it bluntly, a decadent, selfish species with a me-first-to-hell-with-you attitude. There are an awful lot of humans "out there" (in the big, wide world) who would happily witness the murders of thousands of people if it meant that they might make ten bucks for themselves. That kind of self-absorbed, I'm-all-that-matters attitude is the earmark of that 1% you see on the news being protested by the 99%.

So. As a matter of conscience, then, does it really matter if people cannot be held accountable? Should all laws regarding the reporting of a crime be wiped off the books, and to hell with the abuses and homicides (not to mention larcenies, burglaries, shoplifting, etc.) that are sure to follow because perps and pervs will no longer have to worry about witnesses doing the right thing?

Of course, some people will report a crime they've witnessed, because a few humans still like to sleep soundly at night. And that is regardless of laws saying they must or don't have to. But a good many more will simply shrug and walk away, assuming that someone else will report it or, perhaps, that they didn't really see what they thought they saw, and who wants to get someone else in trouble, anyway? Or, what's in it for me that I should go out of my way to report it? I can see the wheels turning... "Hmmm, I wonder if there is a reward for calling this in...?"

Does anyone recall the case of Kitty Genovese, 1964, New York?

The brutal murder of Kitty Genovese and the
disturbing lack of action by her neighbors
became emblematic in what many perceived as an
evolving culture of violence and apathy in the
United States. In fact, social scientists
still debate the causes of what is now known
as "the Genovese Syndrome."

At some point, humans are literally begging for laws to be passed that will substitute for conscience. I wish it weren't so, but how many victims would there be if people could walk away from a vicious crime with impunity? At what point is the silent witness an accomplice?

I don't know how many states, municipalities, counties, etc. have passed reporting laws, but if people could be counted upon to do the right thing in every circumstance, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It is very, very sad.

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:31 PM EST
magnoliaave

I I ever saw a person molesting a child, I would reek whatever havoc I could on this person. I don't require a law to tell me what is right. No way would I even consider walking away to call the authorities.

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:02 PM EST
Reply
Conk

Well Diddley & Sozo, you've caused me to cringe. You see, I think you are probably right, and I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. But you are probably right anyway.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:42 PM EST
bitemore

#3: You see, I think you are probably right, and I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. But you are probably right anyway.

That's what made my stomach flip-flop. Fuzzy Sozo is probably right, but I don't like it, either. I will try to figure out a loophole so he will be NOT right.

  • 3 votes
#3.1 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:17 PM EST
Reply
magnoliaave

Well, I'll tell you what. When my nephew at the age of nine visited us in Georgia he asked my husband if he would like to shower with him. My husband so no. Many years later, it was brought out into the open that his Dad not only showered with him, but took him to bed! Not only only did this beast take his his son to bed, but he molested my brother for years. This man managed to ruin both lives. I won't go into details, but their lives were ruined by this "man".

I had a most serious discussion with my precious grandson yesterday. I told him he will NOT every allow anyone to touch him inappropriately and that I will defend him with my life!

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:54 PM EST
Diddley Squat

Our GFO says ....

I definitely remember Kitty Genovese. I remember where I lived, where I was standing, and what I was doing when the news came across my old black and white television. But would people have reported it if there was a law in place that punished them for not doing so? I, for one, don't think so.

How are the authorities going to track down the people who should have reported it, anyway? Even if they can find somebody, will they stop at one and make that person an example by throwing the book at him or her? And how do you prove that somebody actually saw something worthy of a 911 call, anyway?

We had a potential Kitty Genovese situation right outside my window when I lived in Washington, DC. It was the middle of the night and I'm a sound sleeper. I'd even learned to sleep through gunshots. But I was awakened one night when I heard the screeching of brakes, a woman's screams, a man shouting, the sounds of a car door slamming, and more screams. Looking out my window I saw in the light of a corner streetlamp a white convertible with the top conveniently down. Half way outside the passenger door was a woman in a sort of party dress. A man was wrestling with her and trying to force her into the car. I suggested my worthless then-husband open the front door and "be scary." Fugeddaboudit. That's not him.

I called 911 as the man finally knocked the woman down and slung her over the front seat, then climbed over her into the driver's seat and drove off, one hand on the steering wheel, the other probably holding her by the hair, the passenger side door swinging open and the woman still kicking and screaming.

The dispatcher kept asking me questions. I told her the car was going west right where New Hampshire Avenue runs into Park Road. And the woman was probably stills screaming. I described the car, the man, the woman. No, I couldn't see the license tags.... and so on. I kept telling them the crime wasn't here at my house, it was in a moving car so do something!

I didn't have much confidence that they would. But I could hope. I finally went back to bed. And just as I was going back to sleep, a knock came at the door. Outside was a uniformed cop. "Did you report an assault?"

Maybe it's the police and the 911 dispatchers who need to learn how to handle the calls they do get. That happened to me not once but twice. At the same address, no less!

A forced reporting law will probably report to more calls to police. But many of them will be about nothing worth the complaint. They'll further dilute the volume of calls to law enforcement who obviously don't prioritize very well.

As for people who don't report serious crimes, most of them still won't report. But with a law in place, they won't testify as witnesses, either. That's because it would require that they admit they knew something and didn't tell police. They'd be implicating themselves if they even gave information to the police. So lots of luck getting them to help out even in the investigation phase.

This kind of law not only poses civil liberties problems and problems with drawing legal boundaries. In many cases it will do the opposite of what it's supposed to do. It's going to drive informants underground.

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:11 PM EST
Remote Viewer

This kind of law not only poses civil liberties problems and problems with drawing legal boundaries.

Most esteemed colleague Fuzzy-Sozo and GFO - this article is indeed inspiring a fascinating debate. I can see good points on both sides. I too have misgivings about the whole "reporting" business and the need to apply common sense and ethical standards to it. It seems that however good a law looks on the books, humans find a way to corrupt it in practice. I think of those whose religion, ethnicity, or political views are for some reason offensive to others, and the propensity of some humans to respond by "turning them in" to the authorities on some vague suspicion or with less basis even than that. Look at the way the Occupy movement is being portrayed. The whole business makes me queasy, but I don't for the life of me know what the solution is, or if there is one.

Your admiring fellow hamster-at-law,
Igor

  • 3 votes
#5.1 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:32 PM EST
bitemore

#5: Maybe it's the police and the 911 dispatchers who need to learn how to handle the calls they do get.

Washington, DC. Nothing has changed in that place. I think they have the absolute worst law-enforcement on the planet - they have a horrific crime wave, and outlandish homicide rate, a huge incidence of police corruption... and I'm pretty sure their 911 operators have to pass a test to prove a severe degree of ILliteracy before being hired. Empty skulls probably receive bonuses.

You raise valid points. Absolutely. As conk said in #3:

You see, I think you are probably right, and I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. But you are probably right anyway.

I responded that I had to agree with that statement, but damned if I'm going down without a fight.

But, the points you raise are the same as the dilemma regarding illegal aliens. It is to everyone's benefit that they be able to report crimes to police, to work with law-enforcement in keeping their communities safe, but they're caught between a rock and a hard place. Keep quiet and not have to face deportation, or cooperate and be put on the next flight out of the country. Police departments are becoming more and more vocal in their assertions that they simply will not take down immigration status from people they apprehend because they need these people to cooperate.

Yet - the very fact that they are here means they have broken a law.

It's an awful conflict, and one that is not easily reconciled on either side of the argument.

And, smarter people than I are still floundering about trying to make sense out of the senseless.

I know that I will report crimes that I have witnessed, law or no law. I want to sleep at night. We have an excellent police force here, and they excel at community relations. I also realize that this is not necessarily the case elsewhere - Washington, DC, is a prime example of one of the worst police forces on the planet. I am usually on the side of cops, regardless, but when Washington, DC, is named, I pause and consider carefully, because odds are that the cop is corrupt or just plain stupid, and I hate having to think that. Anyway, I really don't know what the answer might be to the points you raise. Law or no law, our society has some serious flaws just because it is made up of too many humans and probably not enough hamsters.

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:34 PM EST
Remote Viewer

Definitely not enough hamsters, GFO #2!

Love,
Igor

  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:38 PM EST
bitemore

#5.3: Definitely not enough hamsters,

Why am I not surprised that you agree with that, Iggy?

We could certainly use more hamsters-at-law, that's for sure!

Love,
GFO #2

  • 3 votes
#5.4 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:46 PM EST
Diddley Squat

Wow! Some of these messages have that little "reply" button and some don't. Why is that?

But seriously, I thing that old adage applies here. Hard cases make bad law.

Whenever there's something terrible in the news, people look to legislators to "just do something." And if there's nothing they can do, they pass a law.

If you're talking about sexual violence against children - and not law that requires reporting such things as smoking grass - what's going to be the outcome? Very, very few such crimes are committed with someone watching - other than a collaborator, that is. So almost all reports, those that are generated by the law, will be based on suspicion, rumor, or interpretation of events. Anything but fact.

As for those who don't report their suspicions, how will the authorities know who they are?

It sounds to me like another dangerous tool in the hands of overzealous prosecutors. "So you knew something and you didn't comply with the mandatory reporting law? Well you will be prosecuted unless you give us the trial testimony we want."

I think we of the sensible species owe it to humans to at least question what good these laws would do (practically none) as opposed to the potential of abuse they pose (significant).

Fuzzy-Sozo

  • 3 votes
#5.5 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:04 PM EST
bitemore

#5.5: Wow! Some of these messages have that little "reply" button and some don't. Why is that?

The reply button pertains only to the original comment in a set of comments. For example, Comment #5, of which this comment of mine is #5.6 in the thread (assuming I submit it ahead of someone else who may also be responding), has a reply button. The reply button repeats after the LAST comment in a thread (mine, unless someone responds immediately after I submit mine). A NEW thread, in this instance a not-yet-begun Comment #6, will have its own reply button.

I hope I didn't confuse you...

  • 3 votes
#5.6 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:12 PM EST
Diddley Squat

Okay! Got it. Thank yoooooou!

And no. You didn't confuse me. I was already confused.

Fuzzy-Sozo

  • 1 vote
#5.7 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:54 PM EST
bitemore

#5.7: And no. You didn't confuse me. I was already confused.

You? The Great Fuzzy-Sozo? Confused? Why do I have a hard time believing that?

:-)

Anyway, I hope you get the whole comment numbering and reply mechanism now.

  • 1 vote
#5.8 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:58 PM EST
Diddley Squat

You? The Great Fuzzy-Sozo? Confused? Why do I have a hard time believing that?

Hey, I'm not mathematician of whatever you have to be to figure which of those numbers follows what.... or whatever.

I specialize in only two things... Law and <munch, munch> peeling apples .... from the inside.

That's how it works, you know. We hamsters never eat an apple skin. We scrape the apple off of it and leave the peel to dry up.

  • 2 votes
#5.9 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:09 PM EST
bitemore

#5.9: We scrape the apple off of it and leave the peel to dry up.

Okay - then maybe you can 'splain how it is that you can eat the inside of a pea and leave the shell... it's freaky is what it is! How do hamsters DO that?

  • 2 votes
#5.10 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:18 PM EST
Diddley Squat

Okay - then maybe you can 'splain how it is that you can eat the inside of a pea and leave the shell... it's freaky is what it is! How do hamsters DO that?

I wish I could tell you. Honestly, I do. But that's an ancient hamster secret. Every hamster who comes into the world is sworn to secrecy on the peanut question. We are forbidden even to share that secret with squirrels.

  • 2 votes
#5.11 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:40 PM EST
bitemore

#5.11: Every hamster who comes into the world is sworn to secrecy on the peanut question. We are forbidden even to share that secret with squirrels.

Actually, I meant a pea - those little round green things, and perhaps should have said "skin" instead of shell... but the question is just as valid for peaNUTs ... I just don't get how you guys do that!

  • 2 votes
#5.12 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:44 PM EST
Diddley Squat

You may have noticed that a peanut in the shell is just that until given to a hamster. Then, in a short time, you will find that peanut shell empty, with a tiny hole at only one end and no cracks anywhere. That leaves you wondering how the peanut came out of the hole and, just as importantly, how the other nuts came out of the separate sections they were in without anything being opened.

They key thing to notice here is that you find the peanut shell empty. You never actually see a hamster doing it. This is such an important hamster secret that we are not even allowed to do the peanut thing in the presence of a member of any other species, let alone talk about it.

Sorry. I wish I could tell, but I can't. And even if you place a bait peanut in a hamster's cage and stay up all night watching, you won't see it happen. We just don't do that except in private. The secret must be kept safe, always.

  • 3 votes
#5.13 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:10 PM EST
Reply
Leafydebater

I didn't read your article completely but I loved the way it was written and, of course, your fuzzy pictures.

Keep it up!

  • 3 votes
Reply#6 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:40 PM EST
Diddley Squat

Thanks! I appreciate that!

Warm-and-Fuzzy-Sozo

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:55 PM EST
bondibox

Back during Bush's reign of terror, Rep. Sensenbrenner proposed a bill that would make it a crime for a person to have knowledge of marijuana use by any parent. This isn't quite as draconian as Sensenbanger's but anything that seeks to levy punishment upon a person who didn't do anything is beyond the pale, IMO.

  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:06 AM EST
bitemore

#8: a bill that would make it a crime for a person to have knowledge of marijuana use by any parent.

I'm sure glad that didn't pass! My mother grew marijuana in her greenhouse, between the tomato plants. She used it in an attempt to cut back on smoking cigarettes (she was in her 60's at that time). I found it hilarious: this is the same mother that warned me, as a child, about the dangers of accepting "funny brown cigarettes" from strangers... funnier still, her husband (my stepfather) was best friends with the Chief of Police...

  • 3 votes
#8.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 AM EST
Diddley Squat

My son's marijuana plant died. He left it out in the cold once to often. But this is Colorado. It's legal here. It's advertised on TV, for gosh sakes. And the same son had somebody break into his fenced yard and stoke his bicycle. The ganja crop, then very much in good health, they left behind. Everybody's got some. Nobody steals it any more.

  • 3 votes
#8.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:18 AM EST
Diddley Squat

My sentiments exactly. There are two kinds of laws that pertain to that. One kind consists of the "Good Samaritan" laws that are based on English common law. The other, based on the Napoleonic Code, are the "duty to rescue" laws.

The former, which most states in the U.S. have, simply allows a person to assist another without fearing a wrongful death suit or other reprisal if the help they render does more harm than good. The point of these laws is not to punish, but to promise immunity from punishment for doing a good deed.

"Duty to rescue" laws, on the other hand, require a person to render assistance to anybody in distress, probably within what's considered reasonable. But those laws exist so that people can be prosecuted for not lending assistance. We do not have those lose anywhere in the U.S. And they don't work, anyway. People aren't going to think about jail time when there's an avalanche up ahead.

  • 4 votes
#8.3 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:28 AM EST
Reply
Luther28

It is a moral obligation to report such things and as proved time and time again, morality cannot be legislated. No one says that it is easy to do what is right, but then what is easy in life.

Personally I think that in a incident such as the Penn State case, a baseball bat should have been used on the back of the offender's head, but I am sometimes accused of being a tad Draconian at times.

  • 3 votes
Reply#9 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:23 AM EST
bitemore

#9: morality cannot be legislated. No one says that it is easy to do what is right, but then what is easy in life.

That probably says it best. Either a person will care enough to do the right thing, without being forced, or they won't. Simple as that.

  • 1 vote
#9.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:17 AM EST
Reply
Bad Fish

We have several spy laws on the books that require businesses to report suspicious financial transactions. I seem to forget to follow these laws frequently because they are wrong. I am not an agent of the government. My customers are not under investigation and it is not my business or anyone, how they earned the money they pay with. We are quickly becoming a society of guilty until proven innocent. Our rights are violated daily so we can easily be investigated.

If a law has the potential to violate rights of citizens, it must be abolished. Yes it makes our society at risk but the risk is a calculated risk that free people must be willing to take. Otherwise the very right to liberty that burns in every human being is in danger.

  • 4 votes
Reply#10 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:26 AM EST
bitemore

#10: If a law has the potential to violate rights of citizens, it must be abolished.

I'm afraid I have to agree with that. We've already gone way beyond what used to be a free society. We have few freedoms left, and even those are now in danger.

I'd rather live among lions and tigers and bears (oh my!), and hamsters, than among humans.

  • 4 votes
#10.1 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:26 AM EST
Diddley Squat

This is a very good point. People have a duty to obey the law. They are not responsible for enforcing it. That (duh) is what law enforcement is trained to do.

  • 3 votes
#10.2 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:31 AM EST
Reply
etva

An excellent article and discussion here! My thoughts have already been stated, but I think the bottom line is what BadFish said:

If a law has the potential to violate rights of citizens, it must be abolished.

We can't force people to live up to other people's standards, but we should establish laws to prosecute those who violate the rights of others, by their actions (as opposed to their lack of action.)

Having said that, we can choose as individuals to remove our support (be it tangible or social) from those, whom we believe to have knowingly contributed to the abuse of others, through their inaction.

  • 2 votes
Reply#11 - Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:03 PM EST
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